What counts as sexist/degrading in media?

Sign up to disable those pesky ads.

Okay, this came up in another thread and I didn't want to continue derailing it, so I'm making a new thread. I hope lots of people contribute. Now then, let's discuss!

Here's the original thread: http://devilmaycry.org/community/th...ew-costume-dlc-screenshots.10313/#post-328959

Okay, this was the last thing posted in the original thread and it's by ZweiLove:

?

I have a few problems with what you said that I'm gonna point out. (What you want to do with it is your choice.)

First, I don't see where I was forcing my beliefs onto other people. This is something I believe very strongly in and don't like to back down on. I do tend to be intense during debates because I really believe what I'm saying (plus I'm a passionate person). However, I'm not about to force someone to believe me. That would be silly. But I am going to explain why I think the way I do in hopes that the other person would consider it and possibly change their minds (<-- I am not going to cry if that doesn't happen). To say that nothing I say will change a thing, to close off oneself from other ways of thinking, is silly.

Ok, now for the issue at hand: what counts as sexist/degrading and what doesn't.

Having both men and women wearing skimpy outfits may be "equal" but it's not "right." You can like something all you want that doesn't make it right. A person could like smacking people in the head all they want: they are still wrong. Both men and women are equally objectified in the media today. They are portrayed equally wrong. That is a problem. Look at it this way, all over the media (not just games) women are portrayed to have perfect, thin bodies. More often than not they are portrayed as off balance or helpless.

Men are portrayed, more often than not, as strong and fearless. They command your attention. While women in media are often portrayed as something to look at, men in media are looking at someone/thing else.

Now for how this relates to the Serah costume problem:

Serah is going into battle in a bikini. She is exposed and quite frankly defenseless. That doesn't mean all characters have to wear armor all the time, but wearing minimal clothing does leave them exposed and helpless looking: unfit for battle (or most things really). While most of the time it's women who are almost naked, or completely naked, in images even if the man is wearing the same/similar outfit the same could be said about them. They are also exposed.

Saying that women and men being equally exposed is "equal rights" isn't right. They are both being degraded equally. Equal rights are both main sexes and genders being treated with respect. Having your character run around in a bikini is not respectful to women: no more than a super unrealistically strong man running around in 600-pound armor and not getting tired. It is unrealistic and reflects poorly on the minds of many many people. Especially young adults.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, but I think I'm going to hit the word limit soon, so I'm just gonna wrap this up.


Oh yeah, like with every research paper and speech ever, I'd like to establish my credibility (so people know I'm not pulling stuff out of my butt): I've studied gender, women and men's rights, androgyny, media and body image, and other related topics. Here are some of the books I've read and films I've seen that deal with these issues:

Gendered Lives by Julia Wood

The Ways of Seeing by John Berger

Gender Outlaws and My Gender Workbook by Kate Bornstein

Codes of Gender (movie)

I've also taken classes and written countless essays and papers that deal with these issues: many of them have been reviewed and approved by experts in communication studies and gender studies. I'm also an active member of my school's Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance. So basically I know a lot about the topic.

I hope this book like post doesn't scare people. I want to know what people think on these issues.

With men it does exist, but I wouldn't say it's to the same degree as with women. Now, I'm going to be treading very carefully when I talk about women and their image in the media. I'm not a woman and I don't know if/how I might see things differently if I was. It's the same reason why I clamp my yapper shut if the issue at hand is abortion and there's a woman present. I'll never be pregnant so I can never realistically say that I understand this issue as well as a woman. I'm perfectly satisfied in agreeing with other people of any gender who are pro-choice, but I would never debate the issue with a woman who's pro-life. Now that that's out of the way, the issue at hand.

Women in the media (video games in particular) is so ridiculous it's almost comical. The worst games for this sort of thing just so happen to be what this forums are about: hack 'n' slashers. God of War, Ninja Gaiden, and Devil May Cry; each of these are among the worst when it comes to the portrayal of women. They are always scantily clad and even if they are capable of fighting, they are helpless when faced with the final boss of the game. Why are their tits always so big? Why can I see 95% of their legs? Why are they bothering to put on lipstick before jumping into the layer of the beast? It's ridiculous.

This is just an extreme example, though. I think women's clothing in the real world is just as degrading. Sure, there are guys who wear tight V-necks and skinny jeans, but they are a minority. I've tried to talk to girls about this but always get looked at strangely. Maybe I "just don't get it" or maybe we're all so used to it that no one bothers to question it. If I was a girl, I think I'd agree with myself when I say that the word "panties" is a little degrading. It's like the word was designed to mean what the men wear but smaller and cuter. Why do girls feel the need to make themselves up so much? I've been told that it's because the media tells them they need to look beautiful. Ok, then why do they need to look "beautiful" all the time? When guys get dressed, they don't bother making themselves up (in whatever minor way that guys do this) unless they're going to a job interview or out for a night on the town. With girls it seems like it's all the time. Why? Because every piece of clothing for a girl for every possible occasion seems to be designed to be revealing in some way. I'd like to cite yoga pants to support this.

Sorry this got a little long, it's something that's on my mind often. Been on my mind for a while actually, practically since I started noticing girls. Last thing I'll say: my example of a rounded, not made purely to be sexy, female in a video game is Jack from Mass Effect 2.

Great post Cheez! One thing: "girls" are female children and "women" are 18+ females. I know a lot of people refer to all females as girls, I do it sometimes, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I agree with you, Meg, that just because people like things does not make them right. I happen to like scantily clad women, but I like strong female leads that don't NEED that kind of stuff to be attractive even more. *ahem Lightning ahem* Dead or Alive has a female character named Noel who is genuinely caring and thoughtful for her friends and still manages to kick loads of ass. While I like scantily clad characters, I do see it as degrading, especially if the whole point of the character is to NOT conform to standard "gender roles".

You know in real life, if you don't conform to those roles you are several times more likely to be ridiculed? I am male, yet I have several feminine characteristics, and I get picked on for it. I think that is relevant, since these characters are basically "forced" into gender roles just to make people like them when to me and several others, they don't need that to be a good character. What I think needs to happen is the deconstruction of gender roles, as they are harmful and quite frankly ridiculous. They're just like stereotypes, only worse in some regards because this is what we actually expect, instead of what we think we know. And anything we don't expect, what doesn't conform to these roles, is subject to ridicule and shame, with only the rare few examples standing out, like Ms. Farron once again.

So yes, I agree with you, Meg. Like doesn't make right.

Oh stop it. You're such a kiss up. That's also Sgt. Farron to you!

But I agree.

Anyway, DT, you touched on something I couldn't agree with more that we need to deconstruct gender. All gender does is (try to) force people into a box from the time they are born. If they don't conform to their given gender then they are made fun of or worse. *glomps DT for great post*

I figured I needed to make my feelings about it known, and this was a great thread to do it in. It was a great idea from you, Meg.

Sexist: discriminatory on the basis of sex
Degrading: Causing a loss of self-respect; humiliating.
(for anyone who is unclear on the meaning)

Is it degrading if a man wears a pink shirt, eyeliner and tight pants? No. It's degrading if another person, male or female, makes the guy self-aware of his dress code by insulting him. It's degrading when a guy starts dressing that way because of peer pressure, because everyone else is dressing that way, because it's hip and trendy, and not because of his own personal values or tastes. That's self-degrading. That's breaking down who you really are so that you can fit in with the rest.

Is it degrading if a girl wears hot-pants, a baby-T and high heels? No. If it makes her feel good about herself, it's not degrading. For all the exact same reasons I mentioned before.

Is it sexist for a guy to say a certain career is not meant for women, let's say IT development and gaming development for example. No. Unless the woman has proven she's a total ditz and doesn't know wtf is going on. Because that's stereo-typing, and that's where people go wrong by generalising. Not every guy hanging around the playground watching the kids at play is a pedophile and not every woman who dresses modestly and happens to have big kahoonas are weak.

Men can raise children, women can raise children. Men can write books and women can write books. Men can wear pink and women can wear blue. There are certain tasks men can do better than women because they have the muscle power to do it, and there are certain tasks that women can do better than men because they have the mind for it. Men are more logical and visual and women are more practical and emotional. We're all different so it's obvious we'll do things differently, but that doesn't necessarily mean we can't do what the other does.

I'm all for equality. In terms of dresscode, I say we should follow the old Roman tradition and all wear tunics. The men won't be sissys and the women will still be decent. I VOTE FOR TUNICS!

People should be encouraged to be comfortable in their style and career choice, based on their personalities and talents. Not because society says you're too fat to work at the nail salon, or you have bad skin so you can't work as a waiter, or you're ugly because you're not photoshopped/airbrushed in real life, or you have too much clothes on, or you have the wrong clothes on, or you have too little clothes on.

You know considering men can cook and bake as well as women can and spend their lives as chef's, and women can become the head of some pretty big law corporations whilst maintaining a family, I think sexism and degradation of people are really pitiful and probably come from very ignorant people. You don't have to have money to be successful, you don't have to care about how other people will see you. Sexism is what you make of it, as is degrading comments. They don't have power over you unless you give them power/fact.

A good analogy for this is the furry fandom, actually. Is being a furry degrading? No. It's degrading to be ridiculed for it though. Another reason why I love this place, since my scaliness isn't just tolerated here, it's more or less embraced as a part of me.

Exactly! Nothing wrong with scaliness and furriness. If only because we're all pretty weird and so can't judge. *looks at av and sig* *ahem*

Feminism is an ideal - that over the years - I've significantly backed away from. Believing any gender is superior to another is an ideal I cannot support. And feminism these days has been boiled down to nothing but believing the female gender is superior to the male gender. It's come away from women merely defending their rights. We have rights. We are payed equally and from what I hear we're also now allowed to vote.

Women willingly "degrade" themselves all the time in the media. But there's a fine line between degrading yourself and displaying sexuality. A powerful woman, confidently dressing in next-to-nothing is something to be admired - not frowned upon, of course as long as it's done tastefully and the woman agrees to the terms put in place. The body is beautiful after all.

In the media - specifically video games, are frequently filled with scantily-clad women --and men, sometimes. Putting aside the fact that these women are imaginary characters, that are created and can be dressed however the creators wish for a second - I don't see it as sexism -- at all. Personally, yes, I prefer my female characters fully-clothed, but that's because of my own personal preference of how I would dress. Most of these female video characters are really dressed in such a way because sex and sexuality sells well. Look at Lara Croft, she was a strong woman, mostly fully clothed but her polygon breasts were huge. She became a sex-symbol which is why the Tomb Raider series was/is so popular. It's not sexism - it's smart marketing. And sure, it might be unfair or perhaps even immoral to use a woman's breast to make people buy a game when great gameplay and wonderful storylines should be enough, but things are as they are. And I accept it. The trick is to not let naive, pretentious behaviour or idle ignorance overcome you. The game makers do not mean any harm.

As a strong, smart and mature woman, I take pride in my sexuality. Adapting your sexuality and not being afraid to use it makes you powerful. Being a feminist does not. No one asks you to dress this way, no one expects you to degrade yourself. Degradation is involuntary. Sexism only applies when it is involuntary. And a lot of real woman display themselves this way voluntary. And volunteering doesn't apply to video game characters because, ladies and gentlemen - they're not real and have no say in the matter. Their feelings cannot be hurt and it will not affect them.

I don't know about that. By definition a woman is a female that has reached physical maturity i.e. she got her period. So by all rights, a 16 year old can be a woman. Age is meaningless except in terms of the law, of course.

Though you're right, by definition, a girl is a female who has not yet reached physical maturity.

Also, I know I've only been a member a day and this might seem rather unseemly of me, but I took an interest in this thread and felt compelled to reply.

You talk about equal rights and how much you stand for it, yet you say how wrong scantily clad women are. How an artist portrays both genders is their free right, who are you to say that what they like is not right? No one, that's who. Skimpy apparel has nothing to do with equal rights which leaves me baffled how anyone can believe and say such nonsense. Is it degrading? That's not a fact, but a mere opinion. There are women and men who enjoy dressing in ridiculous, revealing clothing and willingly do it on a regular basis (and no, I'm not referring to professionals).

Artists can be perverted, even female artists. There's a good number of professional female artists out there who can lay claim to having drawn revealing clothing for women, "pretty" women, women with large breasts and other assets. Not just the men.

Are they implying that this is how someone should look? No. Are they sexist? No. They're expressing what they personally like in the form of artwork. That is what art is about, a form of expression without any restrictions.

... It's a fantasy video game, with fantasy characters, in a fantasy world, with a fantasy tale. The argument of realism is completely meaningless when the characters are fighting "monsters" while leaping hundreds of feet in the air and wielding impractical weapons with special powers. This argument of yours makes no sense, at all.

I don't meant to be rude, but you couldn't be more wrong. Feminism, by definition, is the belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. Stereotypes and extreme "feminists" have warped societies perception of feminism, but it is still the belief that all men and women (and everyone in between) deserve to be equal in said ways.

And women have more rights, but we are still not equal. We are not paid the same. White women make 77 cents to a white man's dollar, black women make 50 cents and Latinas make 45 cents. I believe the numbers went up in the past year not because women are getting paid more but because men are being paid less. (With the tanking economy.) There's also the fact that 1 in 6 women will experience crimes against their bodies. (I have to double check if its 1 in 6 and not 1 in 4.) Rape is used as a weapon in war.

Also, women's health rights are constantly being attacked. Planned Parenthood is always threatened and the glass ceiling and glass walls make advancing in some careers and getting anywhere in others very difficult for women.

Then there's men. Men are now being objectified in the media as much as women, but it different ways. Men face unrealistic pressures to be successful and in this world economy that is very difficult. It is frowned upon for men to have "female" jobs especially if they are straight. Either way many men face ridicule for their lifestyle choices if they aren't masculine enough. Men are also taught that they shouldn't cry and should just push through no matter what. It has been proven that holding in emotions is bad for anyone.

Feminism deals with both women and men issues. I think the biggest obstacles facing feminists today is that people believe the stereotypes and that there is no more need for it. There is a tremendous amount of need for feminism. Every group has extremists, but they do not reflect the group as a whole.

I would recommend doing some research on current gender issues. It's enlightening stuff. I'm a credible source.

Not to mention, the men and women I've met that also declare themselves feminists are some of the most understanding and accepting people I have ever met.

@DT- I bet you anything they'd think it was cool that you had something (dragons, anthros) that you really liked.

Not all women. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those women didn't realize what they were doing. Most women don't degrade themselves in real life though. The second part I agree with.

Whether they meant harm or not, they still put out images that can influence a person's perception of how women and men look/should look. To think that women should be running around in bikinis or next to nothing in general while men are always clothed is sexist.

Oh I freaking love my body. I think I'm beautiful. Hell, I think everyone is beautiful. (Just wanted to say that.) Women and men have the right to dress how they want, but I also have the right to not like it. And I already addressed the video game character thing so...*scrolls down*

*headdesk* You know I knew that and still put 18. I must of not been pay attention. Good catch.

You should never apologize for posting a thought out post.

Wow really? Was attacking me personally really necessary? I believe I addressed most of what you were talking about earlier in this post. If you have any other questions or points feel free to share: I'd like to know. But try to refrain from being rude about it.

I'm sorry for sounding like a ditz, but what exactly do you mean by that? XD

Ah! I bet you my feminist friends would think it was cool that you have something that you really care about: regardless of what it is. We're all like that. We all believe that people should like what they like because they like it and not be embarrassed by it. So you showing your love for dragons, etc. and not hiding it would be a cool thing to them. And me.

It's funny you'd say that I'm open about it and unembarrassed, because I'm completely open about it with not only my friends but my parents too, which is apparently taboo in the furry community, but they're completely fine with it. And my friends, while weirded out occasionally, do accept it as part of me. It's generally parts of the internet, besides here, where things get a little... Hectic.

And with that, I'm done being off topic. XD Carry on, everyone.

Attacking you? No.. I wasn't, and I don't see how I was and I wasn't trying to being rude either. You addressed some, but you ignore the rest.. and *snip* it away, thanks.

I really don't want to derail the thread but, your word choice and tone were very aggressive. You also seemed to dismiss my argument by saying "it's a video game." I'm arguing that images in video games matter. I posted several sources that further explain and back up what I'm saying.

A lot of people *snip* longer posts to save room. This thread already has a lot of long posts. I didn't want to stretch it out anymore then it needs to.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't ignore the rest since I didn't see your post until after I posted. I'm not sure what exactly I missed.

I'm all for free creativity for an artist. Believe me, I love the female figure just as much as the next guy, but I think that it is a bit overdone. With guys we're portrayed in a wide variety of roles. We can be thick or thin, socially inept geeks or burly idiots, and any mix and shade inbetween. Girls and women do seem to always be well endowed when it's left to the artist to decide. Whether they're intended to be geeky or hard-hitters, it's like a minor accessory; they are always shapely and more often than not thinking about a crush.

Let me reiterate: an artist has his freedom, but I wish a few more would put some variety into the mix. It's not a criticism against any individual artist or his/her freedom to create what he/she wants, it's a gripe with an artistic trend.

EDIT: I got ninja'd like 5 times for this post. Just want to add that it was in response to Gikoku's first post. I don't think that he meant any offense, Meg. Like he said, he's used to Project Ego debates where things tend to get much more heated, though rarely explode.

Science forbid that Noctus, JohnDoe, or Tsuyu should to join in on this.

I guess they appear that way, but they weren't intentional. Guess it's just the way I type and lack of emoticons.

My point isn't that it's "just a video game", my point is that it is all based entirely within fantasy, meaning the sky's the limit and anything goes. Realism holds very little weight in the realm of Final Fantasy and many other JRPGs for that matter.

If the artist wants the character to run around in a bikini, surely they have that free right. You don't have to like it or accept it, but you can of course let them have their freedom with it. Otherwise, we get what leads to more and more censorship. Do I personally like skimpy clothing in my roleplaying games? No, not really, but I don't play the games for their clothing anyway. When Serah's outfit changed in FF13-2, I completely facepalmed at how utterly nonsensical it was.. but because it's Final Fantasy and I've gotten used to what the artist personally enjoys doing with the characters, I just let it pass.

Fair enough, just something I'm not used to over at the Fable forums. No hard feelings.

I get ya. The thing is that while, yes, the artist has the right to portray something the way they want, I don't have to like it. And there is mountains of research and books and movies and so on about how media images effect people. (I listed some in the OP.)

Ah! I didn't realize that was more of a DMC thing.